Status	Other
Country	Australia

Transcript of interview with Jack and Netta Torrance in Newcastle, Australia,
conducted by Jeanette Hyland for the ILA Global Project for the History of Leprosy.

Today I am talking to Jack and Netta Torrance who have kindly agreed to talk to me. I understand Jack that you came to Australia through and for the Leprosy Mission. Can you tell me how this came about?

I worked for The Leprosy Mission in the north of England for some eight years, and it was one time that Mr McEwen called from Australia, and London sent him up to the north, and I was working in the north east of England at that time. He and I went out on deputation from time to time and he suddenly came up with this proposal ‘Would you like to come to Australia?’ I said ‘Umm, well...’ But the thing was that our two sons had already emigrated to Australia six years before, and we were very interested. It was a lovely godsend and when we said ‘Yes, we would be interested’. It just went on from there and hence when Rickard retired and Bill took over…

That was Bill Edgar? That was Bill Edgar.

When you came to Australia what was your role, what were you expected to do?

I was given the state of New South Wales as the State Co-ordinator at that time and Bill just gave me my head. I could virtually do as I liked as long as I worked and I worked hard. He was quite a taskmaster.

Can we go back a step and can you tell me how you got interested in leprosy in the first place?

I had a friend called Mr Lathan. He was a voluntary worker in the north of England, and he was a tremendous fellow, what he gave to the Leprosy Mission was nobody’s business in time and money and deputation work. He was Mr Leprosy in the north of England and this fellow quite voluntarily brought in something like 5 or 6,000 pounds per year. He was a tremendous fellow and he just happened to be in my church at the time. He said ‘I’ve Paul Brand coming over to England; I want you to come and hear him.’ I said, ‘I’m not interested Norman.’ He pestered and pestered me and I didn’t go to hear Paul Brand speaking. He was very disappointed and after a while I did relent a little and came to one or two of his meetings. He had what we call gross films, something about “The barbed wire fence” and it was in Korea and it was the most horrific pictures…

Of deformed…?

Yes, of deformity, of people in the villages and things. Oh, it was awful. I said ’No I’m not interested.’ You see I had - I’m a State Registered Nurse and I knew something about dermatological conditions and I was never very impressed with any of the dermatologists’ approach to skin conditions. What I thought of leprosy I said, I’m not interested. Anyway that worked off and my friend Mr Lathan said, ‘Look, you know, you have medical knowledge’ - I worked for a Pharmaceutical firm as a Medical Rep. at that time - ‘And you are also an elder in the Church so you’ve both physical and medical and spiritual contributions to make, would you like to consider coming into this?’ I was doing well in pharmaceuticals, and it was quite a consideration because Nett and I were moving up, we had our own car, house and everything else, and then – (Netta) and we had five boys – Yes, thank you - we had five sons at the time, as well, and so coming into the mission, if we did, we would have a tremendous adjustment to make financially, domestically and everything. But after a while my wife, after much prayer said, ‘If you go into the Leprosy Mission, I’m coming with you.’

So we decided. Well, Mr Lathan – he was the happiest man in the world because I, his friend, was now working with the Leprosy Mission. So we just developed – the Leprosy Mission then gave me this north east part of Britain to work on. It introduced a – England and Wales at that time came out of the dark ages, and I say that very, you know, patriarchal concept of the Leprosy Mission. I don’t know whether you know. Mr Newberry-Fox was a great old autocrat, you know. He maintained this kind of concept – this is the work: this is what you will do, and this is how you will do it, you see. Then he passed over; things began to change – Eddie came onto – so the light was beginning to shine – we were entering into a new era. It was most difficult.

The organisation was very difficult to move into a new era of thinking, of promotion and things like this – but – then Eddie Askew, then Brown, a delightful fellow from Ireland – he was brilliant. And then from Bill Brown, we went to another fellow called Jim Finsly who was a fellow Scot.

They introduced communication with computers, definite exhibition material and stuff, and it wasn’t just you know, going to a church and speaking on behalf or bring your literature, bring your film. We were promoting things on a larger scale and the films became far superior Good quality. We had a lot of things from Bob Alcorn in New Zealand. It really was – we broke into hospitals – I at first particularly went into hospitals and shared with Physiotherapists and Nurses. Then we had conferences – hospital conferences. We invited the likes of Dr Grace Warren and many others to these. So we were entering into a period of new vision all together so instead of working one man in the north east – we brought the whole of the north into one region. All the men who had worked independently were brought into a team – and I was just the regional organiser of the whole of the north of England.

That was tremendous. You know the fellowship that the men had together, they were writers, they were radio commentators, they were business men, all with their various talents coming together and cooperating with one another. You know this had never been. They had always been an individual before.

You left that and came to Australia?

I left that and came to Australia and found exactly the same thing. We were coming out of the dark ages, and I found it was more difficult in Australia than it was in England. We had no Bob Edger. Even today they are talking about Bob Edger in a way that they talk about nobody else. Bob was my mentor, he was great. Richard McEwen started, combined with, I think, it was Mr Clements of New Zealand, united together and started serving South-East Asia. This was a challenge to the autocracy of England and Wales and they were anything but – they were the rebels – this was terrible stuff and they said if you don’t get a roving, we’ll go on our own - and I was getting all excited about this. We are moving, we’re moving – and then Bill Edgar was asked to take over from Eddie Askew in England and Ken Martin took over from Bill (in Australia) – again a man bubbling with enthusiasm and just pushed us on – and open to new ideas – you were not at state coordinator, you were the Leprosy Mission and so we were trying to help one another and communicate with one another and it was a tremendous time. It took a little longer I think in Australia to get rid of this patriarchal concept. It was a - long term traditions were there … Oh I agree – even those in England and Wales, I think the Leprosy Mission, it was about 1912 began in Australia.

So what was your role really when you came to Australia?

Just state director.

So what did you do?

Just went around churches – as many churches as you could lay your hands on – the more churches you went to, the more meetings you got, the happier they were – this was a devastating – the pressure was tremendous – of course, if you fell below a certain number of meetings per week or per month you were on the black list, metaphorically speaking. You had to take a standard representation instead of having, you know, a regional exhibition, where you invited people en mass. Instead of having one man just going to churches you had that one man bringing nurses and physiotherapists and doctors into a hospital context where you had critical people lecturing. This was encouraged. This had never happened before. We did this in each state and gradually – we broke – you know each representative had his little empire and that’s what had to be broken – and we had some kind of interdependency.

So the contacting the para-medicals, the nurses and physiotherapists and so on, was that successful in recruiting people to work in leprosy?

Yes, it certainly did, of course it did. Yes, we had quite a good feedback from them and again, and this was very encouraging, the hospital authorities encouraged us to repeat. Then we started radio, taking it to radio. The likes of Ken Martin brought out Princess Dianna and really put us on the map. We would never have thought of such a thing.

Thinking big and thinking outside the square?

I thought and maybe I was a little more involved, but I thought they were very, very slow. We had children’s camps in UK where we promoted the Leprosy Mission, and we had adventure camps and so on and we didn’t seem to be able to do this in Australia.

We wanted to bring the people from Australia into India, into Africa but we weren’t allowed. It’s happening now. So they broke through that and it has really has improved tremendously.

Really, I have been very privileged, I’ve seem the breakthrough into new concepts in England and Wales and also in Australia.

At what stage were you able to see things first hand, you were able to visit India and other places?

Yes, well I think my first visit to the international scene was umm, help me Nett 1974, Yes, 1974. I went with a friend of mine.

Where did you go?

We went to India – this was the kind of thing that happened – we had an itinerary, we were going to go to India and Indonesia and during that visit I asked permission to pop in and see my two sons, and it was there that I met Richard McEwen for the second or the third time.

So you visited India from England?

Yes, from England, that is right. Now at that time, Mr McEwen said, ‘Now that you are this side of the world, you want to see more. You want to see Papua New Guinea, you want to see Indonesia, you want to see Thailand, you want to see Korea...’ And I said ‘We haven’t the resources to do this – we have an itinerary.’ Now he had what you call – Ivy Gibb Fund and this was a legacy that this dear lady had left to the Leprosy Mission and Richard could draw on this. You know he had it invested but he could draw on this for special things, so he drew on this fund and Hugh and I went to PNG and Indonesia and we had a ball – I went to the same village (in Korea) personally I used to look at in my film way back in the beginning.

Tell me about being there, about your impressions.

Of Korea?

Of leprosy, of the people you met.

You see, our introduction to leprosy, we had nothing, we had no study books or anything except a little book, booklet, just a small thing by Dr Stanley Browne – he was brilliant, he was a lovely fellow – but this little booklet was the only resource that we local organisers had. So I studied this up, I made note of it and I used this in my talks and in my sermons and … that was the only thing, we had nothing other than that and then these films came in and I watched this – so graphic and horrible images of patients because they wanted to increase the sympathy – the giving you see. But it wasn’t until I went out myself, not only just saw the leprosy patients but touched them, enjoyed fellowship with them, you know, spoke to them, shared spiritual things, that my whole life completely changed. So from a theoretical situation you went to something – you were experiencing something. And that made a – I could speak with power when I came back home. It was a dramatic experience in my life.

So you must have got some strong memories from that?

Very strong. I remember the first time I saw an ulcerated leg – you know those people in Thailand from Edinburgh – Chalice and Allan Davis – he was an evangelist, he was great. He could go out and he could mix with the patients and he could sit down and talk about the Lord – the folks just listened to him and he was delightful. He took me out to this village and this fellow was sitting with a leg, you know almost like Elephantitis out here all in bandages. And I said, ‘Goodness gracious, why haven’t you taken…? So we started taking them off, and taking them off, and taking them off until it came to a natural leg inside.

The guy had put a bandage on and he didn’t dare take it off so he just put another around and another around and when we eventually took all these bandages off there was this great big, from his knee down to his ankle, a great big, dirty, horrible ulcer. Why septicaemia had not set in, I will never know and I said ’If I can look at that I can look at anything.’ It was ghastly. That was my first impression. And I could deal with this.

I remember Netta coming out with me, she had no medical knowledge whatsoever and I thought she’ll never, never be able to take this and I’m telling you Jeanette that I was proud of her, she was great. Just coming alongside; and it was just coming alongside and touching that they seemed to appreciate more than anything. That is when Netta came into her own.

So what are your impressions (Netta) of the first time you saw leprosy, have you got strong memories of that?

We went to Thailand, I can remember going to a village with Trevor. He took us to see a young fellow who had leprosy and he had – well he had no arms – he had a prosthesis on his wrist and he took into his house. It was up a hill. We went in and there wasn’t one thing in that house except a bed roll hanging up on the wall and that was his worldly possessions. They had given him ducks to help him. His leprosy was well advanced and we just loved him.

(Jack) And there was a lovely finish wasn’t there - we sent him out tapes of church services and he had local people come into his little house.

So was there stigma around that – was he avoided by the local people do you know?

No, not too bad at that time, we were surprised that - er, whether he had some position in the village or not we don’t know, but he certainly didn’t have any persecution or any such thing and as I say they did come to hear the tapes the hospital sent down to him.

(Netta) That was when I thought of Australia and the stuff we have got And their life is so simple? And their life is so simple. Incredible.

India, have you got memories of India, where did you, of people?

Again we went to Karagiri and at that time it was a – if I remember right, it was Dr Frischi who was the surgeon there – he was a character. Again seeing the hospital situation at Karagiri, down into Vellore, met Dr Mary Vergese and I saw then – well to me it was so well organised and well run, with a real sense of efficiency in the whole place. Now my thought of India was ‘This is the pit.’ You know, that people had no hope and for a leprosy sufferer – and to see this hospital as I saw it doing miracle after miracle – even in the short time we were there - they took us into the operating theatre, we saw hand surgery and I was absolutely amazed at the way things were done there.

Did you go out on the village clinic run as well?

Yes, yes, we did. Again I think that each member of the team, the workers had their own kind of personality and methods. Some were very, very efficient. Some were quite strict. You know, ‘If you don’t take your medicine, things go wrong’. You know, they were rough. They were strong. They were very strong. Others were happy and joyful and say, ‘Well, pull your socks up and get on with it’. It was amazing how different types that the Lord had chosen, I don’t know if they were all Christians, it was amazing how the team worked together and yet you could see the variations.

So you saw the patients both in the hospital and in the village situation as they waited for the team to come. And did you go into the village homes as well?

Yes, we went into the homes as well. Just one of them – who was that – Mr Chow – they were chiefly Presbyterian – they have a hefty involvement there. We went into this home and they gave us some drink and refreshments and so forth. Mr Chow attended to his medicine and things. We had done everything and we had just got up to walk out and this old fellow said – and Mr Chow told us afterwards – he just bowed his head and prayed. You know, that made a tremendous impression on me when I stopped and thought, ‘How many friends come into my house and I never let them go without prayer. I just think of that old fellow. Now I had no idea what he said, but I was in the presence of the Lord and it was delightful. They were being treated in the home and quite happy, quite contented with the treatment.

So you have seen a lot of changes over the years?

Tremendous changes – well as far as me – I am at the lower end of the scale as far as administration is concerned, but even [with] that I have seen some tremendous … – I mean when we started in the UK, we were quoting 20-30 million people with leprosy. Now we come to the 20s, now we come to the 10s - so there was a consistent drastic reduction all the way down through - and I saw this developing and when you get the likes of Dr Grace Warren or Warwick Britton coming in and giving medical statistics to prove that these things were right, it was quite dramatic and you felt a real sense of satisfaction. You know, when you are working with leprosy and have a pattern of approach, you learn how to recognise leprosy, you learn how to treat it, you learn how to, what the response is and you expect some kind of result. When you’re out as a state secretary, your ministry – unless you’re seeing the same thing all the time - you’ve to have a real skill in putting those statistics, medical presentation, the spiritual context – and it was quite draining and looking back now I take my hat off to these area representatives who went out week after week bringing in 3 - 4 – 500 meetings a year and still come up fresh. That was a remarkable effort and I was in the midst of all this.

So when you look back on all this you feel that it has been worthwhile and… ?

Well, how I determine the sense of satisfaction, and Netta and I were with Leprosy Mission working in UK and Australia, South East Asia and so on for just over 24 year. It went just like a flash and to me that is the evidence of a satisfied calling into this work. It was never a chore, it was never another week of speaking engagement. Put it this way – I think it was Bob Edger who said ‘Bob Edger could find leprosy in every verse of the scriptures’. Laughter. I was never as good at that but that is what these men had to do and it was remarkable.

With the changes now with the treatment regimes and the shortening of the time and the reduction of the numbers the message has to change doesn’t it?

Absolutely!

I mean, you don’t see the pictures now of grossly deformed people?

They have discouraged that entirely, completely discouraged it; whereas, it was the trigger to set off sympathy and financial support. Not now – it’s information, advance, it’s pure, those who have been marred by leprosy - how we are lovingly taking care of them - a different emphasis all together.

That’s right.

(Netta ) And yet the ones – they were all burnt out cases, they were well looked after and taken care of.

And there is still a need for that – that is part of the ongoing need isn’t it?

(Jack) Yes. You know I will never forget that – when we went to Korea – walking down the same street as I saw on that film 30 years before, when I was anti-leprosy mission – and I walked down that street and in my imagination I saw the same men - that was the influence it had on me. It was certainly the same church and the villages – I could remember it quite – “The barbed wire fence” I – it was a horrific thing and this was my friend Mr Lathan.

When Nett and I were given honorary life memberships of the Leprosy Mission, Ron Dawes came to me and I said, ‘Compare my contribution to the giants that this mission has produced – it is negligible’. And then I thought of my little friend, the voluntary worker who was scarcely recognised for his years and years of work. (Netta) He couldn’t even drive. (Jack) I had to teach him to drive. He was about 60 when he learned to drive. See, he was unrecognised and yet his friend who he introduced into the mission was recognised as an honorary life member. I said ‘It is for him that I am taking this, not me’; to recognise his contribution to the Leprosy Mission. It was quite an emotional experience.

That’s wonderful. Thank you Netta and Jack very much.

Entry made June 8, 2006